The Venezuelan Perspective

At the end of July, Venezuelans head to the polls to elect a new president, with Nicolás Maduro seeking another six-year term. This week on Deconstructed, Ryan Grim speaks with Venezuelan Foreign Minister Yván Gil Pinto, who was in New York for a U.N. debate on unilateral sanctions. Fresh from visits to China and Russia, where he engaged with BRICS alliance leaders, Pinto discusses Venezuela’s bid to join this coalition aimed at countering Western economic dominance. They delve into the impacts of sanctions from the Trump and Biden administrations on Venezuela’s economy and migration crisis, and the battle over Citgo, a U.S.-based oil company acquired by the country in 1990. Grim also questions Venezuela’s human rights record.

Transcript

Ryan Grim: Welcome to Deconstructed, I’m Ryan Grim.

At the end of July, Venezuelans will go to the polls to elect a new president, with Nicolás Maduro hoping for another six-year term. Venezuelan migration to the United States, meanwhile, has become a major issue in our own presidential campaign, as the Biden administration continues to slap sanctions on Venezuela and wreak havoc on its economy.

Today, we’re joined by Venezuelan Foreign Minister Yván Gil Pinto, who was in New York for a debate at the United Nations on unilateral sanctions. He had just returned from a visit to China and Russia, where he met with leaders of what is known as the BRICS Alliance.

BRICS, which is an intergovernmental coalition of more than 20 countries, stands for Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa. It’s an effort by Global South countries to build an economic power base strong enough to balance the West.

With the U.S. showing little interest in cooperating with Venezuela, we talked at length about Venezuela’s bid to join BRICS, and his recent trip to China. All of this is happening while the U.S. is using its court system to seize the U.S. subsidiary of Venezuela’s energy company, Citgo. It’s quite an incredible story.

The U.S. recognizes a Venezuelan government in exile, and is allowing that government — which isn’t really a government in any serious way — to basically give away a huge piece of Citgo. The irony is that the brazen move is shocking to the Venezuelan public, and even hawkish figures like Elliott Abrams — a Reagan and Trump official who previously tried to overthrow the Venezuelan government — said the timing of the attempted seizure is terrible, as it’s only helping Maduro in the polls.

For the upcoming election, Venezuela is so far not allowing Western monitors to come in, and has kicked employees of the U.N. Human Rights Office out of the country, accusing them of facilitating coups. At the same time, it has invited BRICS countries to observe the elections. The result of all this aggressive U.S. policy is more migration at the southern border, higher gas prices for Americans, and economic misery for the Venezuelans who stay behind.

We also discussed the nominal pretext for American sanctions, Venezuela’s human rights record which, you’ll notice, the minister was reluctant to discuss much in detail.

Here’s our conversation, which was recorded inside the Venezuelan mission in New York. 

First of all, thank you so much for doing this interview. I very much appreciate it. Welcome to New York. 

Yván Gil Pinto: Thank you. 

RG: So, I want to start with your recent trip, both to China and the meeting regarding BRICS. First of all, at BRICS, how was Venezuela received there? What was the goal of that trip?

YGP [via Interpreter]: So, prior to arriving to the U.N., we had visits, also, in Russia, China and Vietnam. In Russia, we were able to participate in the ministerial meeting of the BRICS.

BRICS, for Venezuela, is very important, because it’s an emerging bloc that is about building a new world. In a world where we see that imperialism, neocolonialism, fascism’s attempts to destabilize the world, we see BRICS as an alternative against that aggression.

That relationship, the new world is based on relationships of complementarity, of solidarity. Not in relationships of domination. So, we understand that BRICS is not a regional organization, or a bloc, as such, because of distance between the countries. But we see it as a unifying system that is based on common principles relating to commerce or to finance, and how relationships among countries should take.

RG: Did you apply for membership?

YGP [via Interpreter]: Yes, we applied for full membership to the BRICS. We have spoken to the 10 member countries. Because Venezuela has a role and a lot to contribute to that formation that is coming out of the BRICS. Not only because we have an important contribution in terms of resources — we have oil, minerals, gas — because that’s important, we are the first oil reserve in the world. I think it would be a very important contribution to the BRICS.

About 40 percent of the world’s GDP is in BRICS, so having the largest oil reserve in the world is important for BRICS. But this alone wouldn’t make any sense if there was not a commitment of Venezuela to the principles of the BRICS. Venezuela’s contribution, then it would be more [in] the political area, that’s already an important contribution.

Venezuela has been known for its contribution to international organizations such as Unazul, ALBA, CELAC. Venezuela is highly responsible, and a partner that is very reliable for BRICS. So, we will bring the resources that are very valuable, we have the commitment to the principles held by BRICS. We have experience in international organizations, and I think we could bring the in integration of different regional blocs, too, as a contribution to BRICS.

Right now, only Brazil represents Latin America in BRICS. We hope that, soon, Venezuela can integrate. During this meeting in Russia, we met with the 10 member countries of BRICS, and we’ve talked about all these aspects in detail with them. And, at the level of ministers, I could say, we all share this vision in a very harmonic and coordinated way.

So, Venezuela feels as [if it’s] part of the BRICS, now.

RG: Does Brazil support Venezuela’s entry into BRICS? And do you expect that BRICS will allow Venezuela to join? When will you know?

YGP [via Interpreter]: President Lula has said it publicly. The Brazilian support is unanimous [for] Venezuela [to] enter BRICS. We understand that in the recent visit that President Lula [made] to Colombia, there was also an invitation extended to Colombia to become part of BRICS. Venezuela has expressed its desire to participate in BRICS since 2000. We are working on this alternative with strength.

It’s part of our government platform, our plan for the homeland. So, we have a lot of expectations on that.

RG: And you visited China. Did you get any indication from China, whether China would support your bid to join BRICS?

YGP [via Interpreter]: So, during our visit to China, not only were we able to discuss bilateral cooperation, which is very important, but we also received China’s support for Venezuela’s entry into BRICS. In September of 2023, president Maduro visited China and we signed an alliance, in what’s called an all-weather alliance with China; that is a comprehensive alliance in all aspects. And, in that alliance, Venezuela’s contribution to BRICS is also contemplated.

So, China’s support is very strong for Venezuela.

RG: Boris Johnson visited Venezuela in February, he brought a message from the United Kingdom. What was his message to Venezuela? What was the Venezuelan response? And how does that play into this conversation?

YGP [via Interpreter]: I don’t really know about the contents of conversations that he held in Venezuela; at least not us, as the foreign ministry. We can say that, as foreign ministry, we had no contact with any former government official of the U.K.

It was a non-official visit, so we have no information of the aspects that took place there.

RG: When it comes to China and your visit there, was there anything you took away from the Chinese model that you think could be applied to Venezuela? China’s growth, obviously, has been explosive over the last couple of decades, whereas Venezuela’s has been the opposite.

What elements of the Chinese model do you think are useful to Venezuela?

YGP [via Interpreter]: With China, we have a relationship, it’s been important. This year will be the 50th anniversary of the China-Venezuela relations. So, we can say the first 25 years of our relationship with China, they were candid relations, but with not [many] advances.

But then, the second 25 years after President Chávez came in into office have been a very intense cooperation of financing projects in Venezuela, and a lot of strong relations. The Chinese model is an admirable model. It’s a model that we can say has lifted about 800 million people out of poverty, and it’s a model that we respect. [It] has adapted to its own ideas, its own particularities, and it’s directed by the Chinese Communist Party, which has a lot of strength, and it has a robust leadership.

The Venezuelan model is a model that we’ve also called “Venezuela’s socialism for the 21st century.” We’re building our own model, and we learned from different models. And, of course, from the Chinese model, we’ve also taken some ideas that are central. We are studying the model and the philosophy and the doctrine of the Chinese model but, in order to build our own model, with our own characteristics.

It’s a model that has precedent which has defined it. It’s a model that also is also based on different doctrines around the world: the Chinese doctrine, the socialist doctrine, the Bolivarian Doctrine, all adapted to our conditions as a Latin American country, under our constitution that was approved by the majority of the people. So, that is to say, Venezuela has a very well-defined model.

We have taken some items from the Chinese economic development model. For example, we’ve launched special economic interest zones, which China has a very deep experience in, and which are an example to the world. Those are ideas that we’re coordinating and learning from them.

And other aspects, such as development of science, technology, agriculture. Those are aspects that we are starting, and trying to see how we can reach a level like theirs.

RG: In the upcoming election, the Venezuelan economy has, the last three or four years, been growing at a pretty steady pace. But if you compare the standard of living to ten or fifteen years ago, Venezuelans are worse off today than they were then.

Why is the government confident at all that Maduro will be returned to another term, given the collapse we’ve seen over the last decade?

YGP [via Interpreter]: So, we’re going to an electoral process on July 28 where we are sure that the popular mandate of President Maduro will be legitimized. Today, all major polls clearly show the advantage that President Maduro has, and show the tendency to his victory.

RG: Well, not all polls.

YGP [via Interpreter]: The serious ones, yes.

There’s an intent to build a public narrative that is different from reality. There’s no really serious poll that says something different. Reality is just one. There’s a wide condemnation in Venezuela to those people that asked for and requested sanctions against their own country. That doesn’t mean there’s not an opposition, there is an opposition to the government. That’s one thing. But that opposition is a majority, that’s completely false.

The majority continues to be on the side of the Bolivarian revolution. There’s no doubt about that. That we can consult at any level. And we’re sure that that majority is what’s going to be reflected on that election on July 28. And that is mainly due to the rejection to those people in the opposition that have asked for sanctions and measures against Venezuela. But it’s also a sign of support for the successful policies of President Maduro during the last years.

Since the year 2014, we have been victims of unilateral coerce of measures, or illegal sanctions. And this implied serious economic affectation to the country. We lost 99 percent of our income. From one year to the other, we passed from having $56 billion as income to $700 million. What country can withstand this aggression?

We were able to withstand it because of the high revolutionary consciousness of the people. In the year 2013, Venezuela had the highest minimum wage in Latin America: around $400 per month, with an extraordinary level of standard of living created by the revolution. The sanctions made it possible that the salary, the minimum wage, would fall from $400 to a dollar a month.

This implied that we had to do huge transformations of and in the economy and the economic model, and how we had to shape the economy for the rest of the country. And, after a few very difficult years, we started on a process of recovery.

Today, the minimum income of a worker is about $130 a month. So, we went from $400 to $1, and now we’re back up to $130. And this, we’re doing it with all sanctions still in place. Which means this is a success, even within sanctions. This resistance shows that we’re going through the right path, and people are starting to feel that.

Beyond that, I think the Venezuelan population understands very well who their enemy is. This ultra-right opposition in Venezuela is the same ultra-right opposition that caused all these damages to the country. Not only when they were in power before the 1998 revolution, but then, during the revolutionary times, they are the ones who have been asking for sanctions and aggressions against their country, and the population knows this very well. We’re taking part in the struggle because there’s always this intent of manipulating the political atmosphere.

Today, the use of social media is very important as part of the electoral campaign. They create doubts, fake news, manipulated news. And they make believe that there are polls that favor them electorally, because the opposition is playing a game where they’re trying to make people believe that they are the majority; this particular opposition, the ultra-right opposition I’m talking about, because there are different types of opposition in Venezuela. I’m talking about the opposition that is backed by Washington.

And their intent is to denounce a fraud, whether it happens or not. Venezuela’s electoral system is very strong, very robust. It’s impossible to have fraud. But the opposition has never recognized any electoral results, and they’re probably not going to do so, either, in this election, and they’re preparing the road for this. And we’re also prepared to defend the victory of President Maduro, with invitations to international alternatives, different political parties, different personalities, so they can come to Venezuela and observe what’s going on.

But we are very confident of our victory, because of our successful policies implemented, a successful economic program, and the strength of our people.

RG: So, Venezuela has joined South Africa’s case at the ICJ [International Court of Justice] against Israel for its attack on Gaza. But, at the same time, Venezuela’s recently kicked out the United Nations Human Rights Office. If you ask the United States, they say, we relieved some sanctions in 2023. And then, in April, we brought them back, because there were human rights abuses, and so on and so forth.

So, why kick out the United Nations Human Rights [Office]? There were some other crackdowns on dissidents, both within Venezuela and outside of Venezuela; [like] Rocío San Miguel, a very high-profile human rights attorney.

Does the United States have a case that there was backsliding on human rights? And why kick out the U.N. Human Rights agency?

YGP [via Interpreter]: Unfortunately, Human Rights has been instrumentalized against the Bolivarian government, the Venezuelan government, in order to attack and revert the Bolivarian government. Venezuela has unbreakable commitment to human rights.

Our generation was a victim of human rights violations. The Bolivarian revolution was actually born precisely after huge human rights violations. In the 1989 Caracazo Revolts, over 5,000 Venezuelans were assassinated or disappeared. All of our generation has either friends or relatives that were murdered or disappeared during those events. There’s no other case in Latin America of a relationship with human rights as Venezuela has. That means we have a very strong and high commitment to human rights.

Despite them having been used against Venezuela, we have high cooperation with the U.N. High Commissioner’s office, because there has been an intent to create human rights violation cases where they don’t correspond. So, in order to counter that initiative, we talked to the High Commissioner’s office, and we set up an office of personnel of the High Commissioner’s office, in order to have activity in Caracas, so they could observe the process. They could go to the trials, to the courts, to visit the jails. And they had free access to all judicial and police institutions in Venezuela. They were there for five years.

RG: With San Miguel, for instance, when she was arrested, her entire family was arrested as well. I think, when people in the United States hear that, they say, you arrest her, also her brothers, her relatives, her location is not disclosed for some time. It doesn’t feel like human rights are being respected, and it doesn’t feel like they’re being instrumentalized in that moment.

TGP [via Interpreter]: I’ll say it again. The narrative that has been attempted to implement about Venezuela has been a false narrative. Our cooperation is absolute. We have [far fewer] problems in human rights than any country in the region. We know that, to advance human rights, we have to better train our judges, better train our police, to have a better system, so these things don’t occur.

All cases of abuse or that denounce these abuses are attended to in Venezuela. As in any other place around the world, except for the United States. Here, human rights cases are not attended to. We tend to them, and when we’ve condemned cases as well. And, precisely, the collaboration with the office was destined to help in these cases.

The problem is that the office was closed in Venezuela, due to the fact that they were doing political campaigning. We didn’t close cooperation with the office. We continue to work, continue to subscribe to the human rights agreements, and we have a constant daily interaction with the human rights offices. There are no countries that have offices of the high commissioner in their own territories. This was done in Venezuela precisely to show that human rights issues were being instrumentalized against Venezuela.

But if you have human rights workers participating or taking part in other interests, that’s something that we cannot allow, because that’s precisely going against the protection of human rights. And any case of abuse in Venezuela is attended to under the law, and is sanctioned. In all exams, Venezuela has proven that there is no policy of human rights violation. Any other version is politicized.

We have asked all observers of human rights to come to Venezuela at different times, but we are a country with dignity, we’re a sovereign country. The justice of Venezuela cannot be under tutelage. Venezuela is a signer of human rights treaties, it’s very well explained in our constitution. Venezuela respects human rights. And, like I said, any case of human rights abuses in Venezuela, they’re treated according to the law, as this should be.

RG: Just one follow-up, real quickly. The case of San Miguel, does she have access to attorneys? What can we expect to hear from that?

YGP [via Interpreter]: In the case of Rocío San Miguel, she has access to her lawyers. She has access to her family. They’ve tried to build a false narrative around this case. Rocío San Miguel is accused of terrorism actions, and she’ll have the opportunity to present her defense. That’s an issue for the justice [department].

But the public prosecutor’s office has strong evidence. The prosecutor’s office is accusing her of having been involved in an attempt against the life of the president. But some of the participants have themselves admitted this publicly and, in the investigations by the prosecution, they found materials at her home that she was informed about the assassination attempt. So, from there, there’s a legal process to judge the case and have her sentenced, as anywhere else around the world.

I mean, I would like to know what would happen anywhere else around the world — or here in the United States — if there was a journalist that was somehow informed about an attempted assassination attempt against the president? I’m sure their human rights here, they wouldn’t exist, like the human rights of the people that are detained at Guantanamo. And, in the case of this lady, she has a right to her trial, and to her defense. I’m not a judge or a prosecutor, but I can see that the evidence that exists is very strong.

RG: Let me ask you about the case regarding Citgo. From your perspective, what is the latest on Citgo? What is Venezuela going to try to do to hold on to its assets?

YGP [via Interpreter]: The Citgo case is a robbery. The government of the United States aligned with a group of Venezuelans who claimed to be the government of Venezuela. They basically began a process to steal the company. And, since then, there’s been a whole series of legal actions, that it’s amazing that these actions have been validated.

Because they stem from a very illegal issue, that the government of Venezuela is not really the government of Venezuela. This doesn’t make any sense. So, anything that takes place after that is illegal. That government — the so-called government of Guaidó — they took advantage of actions and directives within Citgo, and now all of these actions are illegal. But also, they created the basis so that a trial against Citgo will take place.

They basically did everything so that they would justify the courts taking illegal actions against the company. We should see how irrational this is.

RG: The decision to steal, to take, to seize Citgo’s United States subsidiary is coming very soon. I’m sure you’ve seen Elliott Abrams — who himself has been involved in many coups throughout his career in South and Central America — recently said that it was stupid of the Biden administration to go forward at this moment, because it would inflame the Venezuelan public, and could help you in the elections.

A backlash against the opposition — Which I found interesting, because it implied that there would be some actual voting and some real democracy, that public opinion could shift and be expressed at the ballot box, which is not typically what the United States says about Venezuelan elections. But I also found it rather interesting that he said, don’t do this now, do this immediately after the election.

And so, does Venezuela have anything that it can do in this situation? Or are you just watching from the sidelines?

YGP [via Interpreter]: Well, first of all, those statements made by those main actors that stole Citgo is a confession on their part. What else does public opinion need to know for it to see that it’s a robbery, and that it’s a robbery destined to hurt the Venezuelan people?

The truth is, that opposition is extremely corrupt. And the truth is that that corrupt opposition was supported by Washington. They have been supported and they continue to be supported by Washington. That’s true, and we’ve seen it with this statement. Unfortunately, we have no access to the U.S. justice system, because we’re not allowed to.

I mean, we’re not going to stop fighting for reestablishing the legality of what’s in Citgo, because there’s an administrative continuity in Venezuela.

RG: And you have no access to the system, because you’re not recognized as the actual government of Venezuela.

YGP [via Interpreter]: Exactly. For that same reason. We are being denied our right to defense. Because, again, everything around Citgo is built upon a false case, and that will be proven, sooner or later, in front of justice. Anything that happens to Citgo is illegal, and it’s important for all of those who today aspire to take the company away from us, that they must know that all this is illegal.

Everything that is going on is illegal, and everything will have its consequences. It won’t die there.

RG: What would you lose? A refinery in Texas? What else, what assets would be stolen if this goes through? And what would Venezuela retain?

YGP [via Interpreter]: Well, right now, our struggle continues to be denouncing it in the first place. We have no other option. Beyond whatever our lawyers can do, the limited actions they can take within the U.S. system, we rely on international solidarity. And the first thing we have to do is to convince and prove around the world that the legitimate government of Venezuela is the government of President Maduro. And we also need to make the creditors understand that the best solution is to have a direct negotiation with the government of Venezuela.

The path of selling off Citgo’s assets is jumping into the unknown, for the creditors. And what we are trying to do now is to denounce, and to tell the truth, and to alert, that any other creditors that think that selling off Citgo assets will be a solution, that that is the worst path.

RG: If United States sanctions were lifted and if relations were normalized, what effect would that have on the outward migration from Venezuela?

A huge number of people who are being encountered by U.S. Border Patrol at the southern border are Venezuelan. You recently stopped taking flights, in response to the reimplementation of sanctions. How much of that outflow do you think would stop, in the event of normal relations?

YGP [via Interpreter]: So, the origin of the migration outflow in Venezuela, which is something that we didn’t really know until the sanctions policies were implemented, is precisely that. It began with the sanctions.

From 1999 to 2017, we didn’t know the phenomenon of migration; if anything, we knew about a phenomenon of migration towards Venezuela. But it was when sanctions were taken against our economy that there began an outward flow of migrants, because it was a comprehensive attack against our economy and against our nation. Not only did it hurt our economy, but there were special conditions created to attract that migration.

Migration was promoted from Washington during the years of 2017, ’18 and ’19.

RG: Under the Trump administration? How so?

YGP [via Interpreter]: Yes, under the Trump administration.

RG: How did they attract? How did they incentivize?

YGP [via Interpreter]: They created a special condition for those people to come into the United States, special protections for those migrants, different from conditions that existed for other migrants, like Colombians. Venezuelan migrants were treated in a special way. That was created from here, and that created a pole of attraction while, at the same time hurting our economy that stimulates people to come here.

Those who created those conditions, they must assume their responsibility. A responsibility of hurting our economy, and of creating a migrant attraction towards the United States. That continues under the Biden era as well. And, today, that mistaken policy by the United States is what has generated the migrant problem here. And, in the way that the economic situation of Venezuela is improving, then that migration attraction is also decreasing.

Today, the migration flux is actually negative. Right now we have more migrants coming back to Venezuela than leaving Venezuela. So, for every two migrants leaving Venezuela, three are coming back. So, the influx is now towards Venezuela. If all sanctions were lifted today, we would have an influx of migrants moving back to Venezuela.

Because the majority of the Venezuelan population wants to live in Venezuela. They have conditions, they have a system that tends to them, they have social safety in Venezuela. They don’t have that here.

Surely, there will be a part of immigration that will stay in the United States, because they already built their life in the United States. That generates another type of internal action, because the bipartisanship in the United States wants to benefit from the creation of an opinion group of Venezuelans inside the country, as happened with the Cubans. And there’s an interest in both parties to favor that type of migration, and to obtain a political profit from that migration.

But the treatment of the migration issue by both Democrats and Republicans is highly hypocritical. They stimulated it, they live off it, and they use it to attack each other. So, that’s why we have created a social program that is called Return to the Homeland that President Maduro has created, so that people would come back to Venezuela. And I think we’re the only country in the world that has created a program to go and get the migrants, and voluntarily bring them back to the country.

All those Venezuelans that want to voluntarily return to the country, we’re going to facilitate them to return.

RG: What conversations are ongoing, if any, between Venezuelan officials and U.S. officials toward normalizing relations? Has there been any reaction to you traveling to the BRICS conference, to applying for membership? Does that bother the United States, have they been silent about that? And what’s the path forward here?

YGP [via Interpreter]: So, negotiations with the United States are handled by the president of our National Assembly, Jorge Rodriguez. Conversations have always taken place, even during the worst moments. They’ve always been taking place. These are conversations, like you said, to normalize relations. Unfortunately, the United States has never complied with any of the agreements it has signed.

But, despite that, we continue to talk. The foreign ministry is not part of the conversations. We haven’t received any contributions with regards to policies, because there’s no need to.

RG: Well, thank you for your time. I appreciate you joining me.

YGP [via Interpreter]: Thank you.

RG: Deconstructed is a production of The Intercept. This episode was produced by Laura Flynn. It was recorded and mixed by William Stanton. Legal review by David Bralow, Shawn Musgrave, and Elizabeth Sanchez. Our theme music was composed by Bart Warshaw. And I’m Ryan Grim, D.C. Bureau Chief of The Intercept.

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